City of Aurora Historic Preservation Commission met May 10.
Here is the minutes provided by the Commission:
Call To Order:
Mr. Miller called the meeting to order at 7:10 p.m.
Roll Call:
The following Preservation Commission members were present: Fernando Castrejon, Jen Del Debbio, Mike Lord, Dan Miller, Herman Shelton, Al Signorelli and Mike Walker. Rob Vaughan was absent.
Others Present:
The following staff members were present: Jill Morgan and Sue Jackson.
Others Present: None
Approval Of Minutes:
18-0368 Approval of the Minutes for the Historic Preservation Commission meeting on April 12, 2018.
A motion was made by Mr. Signorelli, seconded by Mr. Castrejon, that the minutes be approved and filed. The motion carried by voice vote.
COA Report:
18-0420 April Historic Certificate of Appropriateness Report
There were no questions on the COA report.
Mr. Miller said my only comment is this is a short list this month, but these are really, really good. Someone painting and putting on half round gutters on West Park. And 451 Spruce Street is right around the corner from me, this is excellent. They are going to remove the synthetic siding. I didn’t think anybody would ever do that to that house. That’s awesome. The same thing at 140 W. Chestnut, remove synthetic siding. These are very good. It looks like we will have another one coming in for a house on W. New York Street as well for the same thing.
This COA Report was discussed and filed.
Agenda:
18-0413 Certificate of Appropriateness to replace aluminum siding with new wood siding at the house at 444 Grand Avenue (Jerry Spitz - 18-00413 / AU22/1-18.093 - COA/HP -JM - Ward 6)
Mrs. Morgan said the owner wasn’t able to attend tonight. He was hoping maybe his contractor could, but it doesn’t seem that the contractor could make it either. I will say that I think we should go ahead and discuss it and make a determination. The owner can appeal if he wants to come in person. He knew when he submitted that he would not be here in person. So this one, he has some hail damage and he doesn’t want to commit to taking down the siding and restoring the wood siding underneath. His major concern is not having insulation, so he’d like to be able to remove the aluminum siding, put insulation on and then put new wood siding over the top of that. He said that he thinks the contractor has also talked to other people in the district who might be interested, so this might come up on other homes so it is worth discussing now so we can have maybe kind of a guideline to how the Commission feels about that suggestion. You saw some pictures submitted in your packet. Staff has done a little bit of research. The one thing about the wood siding, as many of you have found, is that often it is in good condition underneath the synthetic siding. The wood that was done, the siding of that historic wood, is a much more durable wood than you do find today. It is old growth wood compared to the new growth wood of today’s wood lumber. The new wood is not as high a quality as the historic wood. One of the main goals of the guidelines is to preserve the historic fabric whenever possible. While it keeps the same look, you do lose that historic fabric. That’s a concern that staff has.
Mr. Signorelli said and we don’t have at this point any idea of the condition of the original, correct?
Mrs. Morgan said correct. This is to have approved outright without a condition assessment of the wood siding.
Mrs. Del Debbio said does the contractor want to put board siding on or panel siding?
Mrs. Morgan said I assumed it was like wood.
Mrs. Del Debbio said because I read here in a handwritten note they want to put pink foam underneath. Maybe they are going to put it on in a panel, maybe a wood panel that looks like wood.
Mrs. Morgan said I assumed it would be wood boards. We did grant where we did finger jointed wood siding and that turned out really nice.
Mr. Miller said yes. That one is on Grand also. I walked by and looked at that just this spring and after he painted the siding you really can’t tell. I remember the cost difference was pretty substantial. It is still wooden board. I guess it would be somewhat manufactured. It wouldn’t require that you have a length of tree that is 8 feet long because you put the pieces together.
Mrs. Morgan said and it blended in because he has a mix. He kept some of the historic wood as well. I don’t think you can really tell.
Mr. Miller said I couldn’t tell after he painted it. I wish he would paint the rest of it.
Mrs. Morgan said he is working on it. So that is something that I would allow as like a finger jointed wood.
Mr. Miller said I have my own experience in that I do live in a wood house with wood siding on it with blown in insulation and my heating bills are actually quite low. That’s my experience. I’m not seeing any reason why the same thing can’t be done in other homes in the district.
Mr. Signorelli said have you had any experience, Mike, with insulation?
Mr. Walker said no. We just have 2 layers of brick.
Mr. Castrejon said didn’t Jimi Allen also do that? I’m pretty sure he did.
Mrs. Morgan said the spray in insulation?
Mr. Castrejon said blown in.
Mr. Signorelli said I thought that was a viable alternative.
Mrs. Morgan said Jen, did you say that you had some experience with the blown in insulation?
Mrs. Del Debbio said this was a previous house on LaSalle Street and it was wool blown in at the time the home was built. It was intense and we had critters in there. The new blown in, my dad used to work for a company did some. At the time, it wasn’t really, you’d have to create a barrier between your home and the insulation because it was some type of polystyrene, something that wasn’t really conducive. If the gases built up you could get kind of like a radon type of situation going. But new blown in insulation I would think is pretty good. I’ve seen it on some of those home shows, but I don’t know personally a lot about that.
Mr. Signorelli said well maybe we need to get some information on that issue.
Mrs. Morgan said there are other ways to insulate. Insulating the roof. It is one of the biggest loss of heat. Insulating even a crawl space or a basement or closing the basement off if it is unfinished.
Mrs. Del Debbio said well and last time we talked about insulating even cavities of the window because windows leak a lot.
Mr. Miller said window maintenance can help.
Mrs. Del Debbio said on board alone you have a lot of cracks. Like you said, the soffits. Sometimes old homes have cracks that are purposely put in there for breathing. How are you going to put pink insulation up to it?
Mr. Signorelli said I think the best thing is to get the best, most efficient furnace you can get because old houses are always going to have leaks and they are going to have lots of leaky windows. We are all familiar with all of that. I think the best defense is a good efficient furnace.
Mrs. Morgan said yes, and one that’s right for the size and everything of the house.
Mr. Miller said I should throw that out. I do have a high efficiency furnace, the type that will vent out the side rather than through the chimney. It is a higher efficiency. I have blown in insulation and a high efficiency furnace. I pay $70 or $80 in the winter. In looking at the guidelines here that are printed in the handout, under Wood Siding under Section A it says wood siding original to a building shall be repaired rather than replaced. And Section B starts wood siding original to a dwelling shall not be concealed beneath synthetic materials. And Section C wood siding that has been concealed beneath synthetic siding should be repaired. It seems to me the guidelines are stating directly that you need to repair the original siding. It is pretty unusual from what cases I’ve seen for the original siding to be so deteriorated that we would approve the replacement. So if there is any question, I would say the homeowner should just count on repair. This is kind of unusual.
Mrs. Morgan said and I feel like I’ve heard this conversation from other people as well, so that’s why I think it is worth just having a discussion and going ahead and being able to give back guidance to people.
Mrs. Del Debbio said what do they do with the windows, and the door frames and soffits? If you put pink insulation board on top of the wood that’s already there and then put wood again, you are having a reveal that’s going to have to be, you have to wrap you windows and we don’t want wrapped windows.
Mr. Lord said well you have to build the windows out. I was thinking that. If they are going to build it out you have to redo all the wood casing windows, you have to do the door casing and all the trim. It is all affected. Why don’t they just take the siding off and go from there so we can decide what the wood is like underneath rather than trying to do something without seeing what’s underneath it? We don’t even know what’s underneath that insulation. They are just assuming.
Mrs. Morgan said the one that we allowed the cement board, the wood trim was still visible, but they did take it off and put that right on the backing. The wood trim was still visible. They didn’t have to build it out in that situation, but it may have already been a thicker trim.
Mr. Miller said in this case they are wanting to add thickness to the siding, so it’s possibly that the windows and such would appear sunken. You would have to build them out as Mike was saying. Doing it the way they are proposing sounds more difficult.
Mr. Signorelli said it is.
Mr. Lord said how are you going to get a reveal of an overlay from siding? You can’t when you are building on top of it. I haven’t seen it. I haven’t seen that in a lot of jobs I’ve done. You just rip it off and do it or you repair it.
Mr. Signorelli said and the added expense. You’ve got the expense of removing all the original siding and then insulating and then replacing it.
Mr. Miller said did they want to remove the siding? I didn’t catch that. I thought they wanted to put another layer over it.
Mrs. Morgan said I guess I was thinking they probably would put it right over the wood.
Mr. Miller said this says the contractor wants to remove metal siding and cover existing wood siding with pink foam board and tie backs and then install appropriate wood siding approved by the Preservation Commission. Then you are looking at building out the woodwork like Mike mentioned. Mr. Miller said the proposal seems difficult to make it work.
Mr. Shelton said so what’s the basic logic why he wants to go this route?
Mrs. Morgan said the insulation.
Mr. Shelton said simply insulation?
Mr. Miller said but there is an option of blown in and then also I believe the research is showing that you lose more heat through the roof, so it is actually insulating the attic, which he can do regardless of what he does with the siding.
Mrs. Morgan said that’s your biggest heat loss.
Mr. Shelton said so I’m not hearing anybody thinking that’s a good idea.
Mr. Miller said I think you are hearing correctly Herman.
Mrs. Morgan said the guidelines do mention discouraging drilling holes for insulation, but I have told people that we are willing to work with people on that. I think that is not what the guidelines meant was not to allow people to do blown in insulation.
Mr. Miller said I think what they are getting at is you can actually maybe remove a board and then blow the insulation in and then put it back rather than drilling a hole and you have to plug up the hole. Is there any further discussion on this or do we need to make a motion on this?
Mrs. Morgan said it is up to you. If you feel a strong opinion. If the owner wants to appeal it in person with his contractor, he can come back.
Mr. Miller said I’m not hearing much support for doing it.
Mrs. Morgan said I felt like he would probably like the guidance if it is a no go if people don’t seem supportive of it.
Mr. Miller said for me it is a no.
Mrs. Del Debbio said for me it’s a no.
Motion To Deny Was Made By: Herman Shelton
Motion Seconded By: Al Signorelli
Ayes: Fernando Castrejon, Jen Del Debbio, Mike Lord, Dan Miller, Herman Shelton, Al Signorelli, Mike Walker
Nays: None
A motion was made by Mr. Shelton, seconded by Mr. Signorelli, that this agenda item be denied. The motion carried by voice vote.
Pending
Committee Reports:
A) Grants - Rob Vaughan, Chariman
No report.
B) Near Eastside Historic District - Jennifer Baird-del Debbio, Chairperson
No report.
C) Riddle Highlands Historic District - Fernando Castrejon, Chairperson
No report.
D) Public Awareness - Dan Miller, Chariman
Mr. Miller said we haven’t met. I would just say we did present the Mayor’s Awards for Historic Preservation at the City Council meeting on Tuesday. Several of the homeowners did appear to receive their awards from the Mayor. I thought it was good to have us seen at City Council in that setting. Thanks Jill and Sue for all your work on putting that together and putting together a reception for us. It is much appreciated.
Mr. Signorelli said thanks for the Mayor and the Deputy Mayor for attending.
Mr. Miller said one of the homeowners I spoke to who did appear, I had spoken to him on Sunday and said well I think the Mayor wants to give you an award and he did come. So maybe the incentive of the Mayor giving you something, maybe that is seen as a good recognition by some people. They appreciate that.
Mr. Signorelli said they also has a shortened version of the information on the nominees in the Beacon.
E) Landmarks - Al Signorelli, Chariman
No report.
F) FoxWalk Design Review -
No report.
G) Tanner/Palace Historic District Committee - Dan Miller, Chairperson
No report.
Announcements
Adjournment:
A motion was made by Mr. Signorelli, seconded by Mr. Castrejon, that the meeting be adjourned. The motion carried by voice vote. Mr. Miller adjourned the meeting at 7:30 p.m.
https://www.aurora-il.org/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Minutes/_05102018-1454
Alerts Sign-up